User talk:Naive rm

Коллега, пожалуйста, верните во всех элементах о Крыме, где Вы удалили, государство=Украина. Эта точка зрения тоже должна быть представлена. Если хотите как-то указать всякие приоритеты, могу подсказать, в каком виде это можно сделать. --Infovarius (talk) 17:03, 5 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Не обязуюсь вернуть всё как было - для очень большого числа статей добавлял разного рода инфокарточки и соответственно правил множество атрибутов в Wikidata, многие из которых заводил сам. В частности, в элментах, где я сам добавлял атрибут country, считаю что у меня было право заполнить его так, как считаю корректным. Тем не менее, в дальнейшем не буду править поле country, для сохранения различных точек зрения. --Naive rm (talk) 17:19, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Ладно, тогда я сам пооткатываю. --Infovarius (talk) 22:21, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Хорошо, конечно же делайте так, как считаете правильным. Но у меня есть вопрос к вам, как к более опытному википедисту. В укровикипедии во всех статьях о Крыме нет упоминания о принадлежности к России, а любые альтернативные точки зрения немедленно блокируются. Соответственно в укровикипедии представлена только официальная позиция Украины, а в рувикипедии представлены официальные позиции России и Украины. Не видите ли вы в этом ассиметричности и не считаете ли правильным скорректировать какие-то из статей о Крыме в укровикипедии (хотя бы признак страны) с тем, чтобы для украиноязычных пользователей википедии также была представлена альтернативная точка зрения? --Naive rm (talk) 06:53, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello!

A; This item: honorary citizen of Vilnius (Q58398498) = award (Q618779)

B; This item: list of honorary citizens of Vilnius, Lithuania (Q15827129) = Wikimedia list article (Q13406463) (Wikimedia list of persons by award or recognition received (Q66794983))

A; Award type:

Bla blablabla blabla bla blalal blablablabla
blablalala lablabla. Blabla lalabla blab.

B; List type:

* blabla
* blablablablabb
* lablabla

A <> B

Example:

• honorary citizen of Budapest (Q56479277) hu:Budapest díszpolgára
• list of honorary citizens of Budapest, Hungary (Q851070) hu:Budapest díszpolgárainak listája

See also: this link

)

Good bye! Palotabarát (talk) _list" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:28, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Прошу не ставить "нерекомендуемый ранг" для объектов в Крыму помеченных как Украина. Спасибо. --Mitte27 (talk) 15:45, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, please check Q115057213 and Q115056814. They can’t be father and child if they have the same lifedates. --Emu (talk) 16:51, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Done

Can you add an external reference and sex/gender when you create new items?

E.g. https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q123023009&diff=1992028738&oldid=1990522642 Asterix2023 (talk) 04:23, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Again https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q123129410&diff=prev&oldid=1994711242

Can you do that, or at least respond? Asterix2023 (talk) 16:41, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this is necessary and I don't want to waste my time. I believe that an AI/ML model will be developed later that will automatically fill this property. Naive rm (talk) 20:45, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If a person is a father or mother the sex can be added probably by bots that exist today. Could you ask User:Ivan A. Krestinin? That would at least fix it for some.

Wasting time: if the items would be created with at least one reference like Geni or GND, then other data, e.g. sex, parents, names etc. could be added by bots. Adding child is wasting too, since if you add parents to person, the parents don't "need" that information.

Without any external id it is much harder. Your items seem to be in Geni very often. @Daniel Baránek and @GZWDer did connect items with genealogical databases like Geni in the past. Asterix2023 (talk) 21:13, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this is necessary and I don't want to waste my time. Please keep in mind that by creating items with missing statements and identifiers, you are effectively wasting other users’ time who have to clean up the mess. An almighty AI cleanup won’t happen any time soon, at least not for the type of items you are creating.--Emu (talk) 13:00, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The subject of my interests is the history of Russia, for a number of wikidata items that I created, there was no correct entry in geni or GND. I have made more than 60,000 edits to Wikidata, including often correcting various previously entered data or incomplete information. So, I understand that the correctness of the information is important. Naive rm (talk) 07:38, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since at least 2022-06-14 https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q112573557&oldid=1660467414 fixed by me today https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q112573557&diff=1997165427&oldid=1715967932 Asterix2023 (talk) 20:33, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A source is a basic requirement for creating an item. @Naive rm: Items like Q123186448 will be deleted if no source is added. Please also keep in mind Wikidata:Notability. --Kolja21 (talk) 16:48, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Kolja21 do you know someone who could generate a report in form of a list that contains each item about a human created by naive rm that has no external ID OR no sex? If possible daily updated so that one can see whether more such items are created and which got fixed. Ideally Listeria could filter by creator.

It seems that many, maybe all, of the items are about nobility from Russia or their close relatives, each I checked was in Geni. Adding Geni ID and sex could be a first step to improve the items, further references can follow later. Asterix2023 (talk) 18:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

God save us from AI/ML models. How bad ORES (Q28870016) was!--U. M. Owen (talk) 20:59, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I found a genealogical error in Wikidata added by you by checking Geni and a German book. First wrong father was attached, then wrong mother, and now that person is also in child statements at the items of the wrong parents.

The mother Q115858651, created by you 2022-12-24, has no external reference.

With one link to a genealogical database that is widely used in Wikidata it would be easier to control the correctness. Asterix2023 (talk) 18:54, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Magda von Mengden (Q115858651 ) is mentioned in the bio of Karl von Sievers (Q826113) in BBLD and genealogical list in Russian. Naive rm (talk) 21:08, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please

1. add an external ID
2. fix the multiple issues (item-requires-statement constraint - An entity with child should also have a statement sex or gender.)
3. compare the child statements here with the child statements in the external source
4. provide evidence that the wife of Q826113 is named Magda

Asterix2023 (talk) 21:17, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please show me the rule that it is forbidden to create new wikidata item without a gender property. Naive rm (talk) 21:39, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't claim such rule exists. I wrote:

Please ...fix the multiple issues (item-requires-statement constraint - An entity with child should also have a statement sex or gender.)

Not doing it creates several ! signs on the page, did you see them? Asterix2023 (talk) 21:48, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please show me the rule according to which it is forbidden to create new wikidata for an object with a child element without the gender property.

Wikidata allows you to enter many properties for each element of Wikidata, including dates of birth and death, place of birth and death, awards, nationality, gender, etc.

Usually I enter only the key information that I consider important - name, date of birth and death, links to parents and childs. Those who think that some other properties are also important can add other properties. Naive rm (talk) 07:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As Asterix2023 already said, there is no specific rule disallowing your editing style, at least not in most cases. However, there are generally very few rules on Wikidata and even fewer hard rules. But maybe consider this: We are far too few users in any given field so we can’t really afford to alienate users. It takes you literally a second to enter sex or gender (P21) information with QuickPresets and very little time to add an external identifier and some basic references. For this effort, you save a lot of time for and nerves of other users who have a much harder time fixing your items since they have to start from the beginning instead of just entering data at hand. Even if you don’t agree with other users’ vision of Wikidata, that’s a really easy to to sprinkle some WD:AGF energy and encourage future Wikidata contributions from others creating a better project for all of us. --Emu (talk) 08:02, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So, there are no rules obliging me to enter gender properties for wikidata items, but Asterix2023 asks me to fill those fields that he considers important to himself (gender properties).

But maybe consider this: Asterix2023 contribution is less than 5k edits in Wikidata, my contribution is more than 60k, why I should spend additional time on those fields that Asterix2023 considers important, and why he not fill them out himself? Naive rm (talk) 08:22, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Would it help if I told you that I ( 322k edits) would be really happy about sex or gender (P21), external identifiers and sources, too? --Emu (talk) 11:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Emu, I really appreciate your significan contribution, and respecting your time, I will not ask you to fill in all the properties that interest for me in all wikidata items that you have created. Each contributor can invest own time to the extent that he/she considers acceptable for himself. As I wrote earlier, I try to specify the external reference where I find it, but this is not always possible. Naive rm (talk) 15:35, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you are creating constraint violations en masse. It’s not like it’s totally up to you what is deemed important and what not. Just because you can’t technically be blocked for something doesn’t mean that you should do it. --Emu (talk) 15:40, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please show concrete examples of errors in items that I created and I will correct the errors I have made. Naive rm (talk) 19:50, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Take Q123234393: Every statement apart from instance of (P31) yields a constraint violation. --Emu (talk) 21:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Great example, archived https://web.archive.org/web/20231029223223/https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q123234393 Asterix2023 (talk) 22:35, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly is wrong? This item relate to a person who is father of ru:Мореншильд, Владимир Александрович and granfather of en:George de Mohrenschildt and ru:Мореншильд, Дмитрий Сергеевич, all properties are correct including ref to Geni.id. Naive rm (talk) 05:10, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Have you looked at the little icons (flags and exclamation marks) adjacent to the statements? They explain what’s wrong pretty well. --Emu (talk) 09:08, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I looked and see that you are writing about the gender property again.

"statement for sex or gender with one of the following values:

male

male organism

trans man

cisgender man

trans woman

intersex person

non-binary person"

We discussed this above and you admitted that there are no rules obliging to enter this property. Naive rm (talk) 05:04, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, what you required was this: Could you please show concrete examples of errors in items that I created and I will correct the errors I have made. I now told you about your errors. Please correct them (as you promised!) and refrain from committing them in the future regardless of the immediate threat of a block. --Emu (talk) 09:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't simply ask you to do that because as you say I consider that field important, but provided a reason which means others found sex/gender important too. Can you answer the question I asked related to that reason? [Not doing it creates several ! signs on the page, did you see them?] Asterix2023 (talk) 14:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Re BBLD - due to their instable links it cannot be used reliably in references, if you want to use it, please link via webarchive. The property itself has been deleted under the reasoning that the values are not stable. @User:Kolja21 fyi. Maybe deletions in BBLD also cause deletions in DtBio. I have even seen broken links in GND. Not to mention factual errors in BBLD itself.

I doubt that BBLD can be considered a reliable source. Either it provides a reliable source, then that can be used, or it refers to Wikipedia, or it provides no source. The only value seems to be that they create GND IDs. Asterix2023 (talk) 21:44, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Zu den Problemen mit BBLD (und dem entsprechenden User, der auch GNDs anlegt) gab es in den letzten fünf Jahren zahlreiche Diskussionen, erst auf Wikipedia, dann hier (siehe de:Vorlage Diskussion:BBLD und Wikidata:Properties for deletion/P2580). Als Alternative eignet sich in vielen Fällen die Erik Amburger database ID (P6878). --Kolja21 (talk) 22:36, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oder das Buch DBBL oder wie im Fall hier, direkt die genealogischen Handbücher. Asterix2023 (talk) 23:11, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gustav Knorring Q107999649 - no reliable source provided, not even any source at all.

@Kolja21, Emu, U. M. Owen: fyi. Asterix2023 (talk) 22:00, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Густав Кнорринг (1794-1831) is mentioned in the biography of ru:Якушкин, Евгений Иванович who was married to his daughter Елена Густавовна Кнорринг (1826—1873). Naive rm (talk) 06:58, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So, that is a source for the spouse/marriage? what is the source for the parents? Asterix2023 (talk) 14:15, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://ru.rodovid.org/wk/Запись:1277877 Naive rm (talk) 15:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can you add that to the item as an external ID? Asterix2023 (talk) 15:16, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This item has already reference to Geni. Is that not enough? Naive rm (talk) 15:32, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Naive_rm&diff=prev&oldid=1999785978 - what do you want to proof with that? Asterix2023 (talk) 14:27, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Asterix2023

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Naive_rm Naive rm (talk) 19:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Providing evidence for the claim regarding the number of edits does not answer the question. Asterix2023 (talk) 22:31, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2022-12-11 you merged Q54506929 (created 2018-05-30 by Reinheitsgebot) into Q110324393 (created 2021-12-31 by GZWDer).

Please always merge into the older item.

I found it because de-label was missing. So, it was missing since 2018 and not since 2021.

Asterix2023 (talk) 11:39, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1. Indeed, I merged this items because according to all properties (name, date of birthday and death, etc) they related to one person. If it was mistake and this items were related to different persons I beg your pardon. I am ready to split it and resolve potential issues manually.

2. For merging items I used "Merge with" function. I can confirm that I didn't delete de-label manually. Naive rm (talk) 05:19, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You merged the older item into the newer item therefore into the wrong direction. Asterix2023 (talk) 05:48, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1. So you confirm that these two items were duplicates and the merging reduced the mess in the wikidata. This is great.

2. I don't remember the details of this case, but I definitely used the standard function for merging. You wrote that de-label is missing after that and as I understood it depends on the order in which the items were merged. In this case it looks like error in merging function and it is better to write to the administrators and developers of wikidata. In my practice, I have not met this type of issue, at least for ru-label. Naive rm (talk) 05:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A more productive answer would be along the lines of “I don’t know what happened but I will try to make sure that I merge in the right direction in the future“. Getting defensive and pointing fingers at everybody else won’t exactly improve your user experience in Wikidata. --Emu (talk) 09:33, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q117089799&diff=2011534436&oldid=1851545665

What was your source, especially for the dates? Asterix2023 (talk) 09:00, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://guides.rusarchives.ru/funds/17/suhtelen-k-p and https://impereur.blogspot.com/2018/01/3-konstantinus-anne-martinus-van.html, but in some sources year of birthday is 1790 https://rgfond.ru/person/120346 Naive rm (talk) 09:20, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The entities Q112121827 and Q112288167 should be contemporary to be linked through mother, but the latest end value of Q112288167 is 1817 and the earliest start value of Q112121827 is 1823.

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q112121827&diff=prev&oldid=1785649521

What are your sources? Rostworowski (talk) 03:26, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I believe it was information from the genealogical forum, but you're right, it was a mistake, Victor's mother was Roksolana and this is confirmed, among other things, in the memoirs of his brother Konstantin https://proza.ru/2021/12/27/1586 I already fixed this mistake

missing signature of the former post, details: "09:22, 9 May 2024 Naive rm" Rostworowski (talk) 15:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Julius Stenbock" (Q55106436) - what is your source for:

1. father https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q55106436&diff=prev&oldid=1366564327
2. mother https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q55106436&diff=next&oldid=1366564327

? Rostworowski (talk) 02:50, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• -> https://ru.rodovid.org/wk/Запись:208427

That is not Julius.

Please add the source to the item. Also, Amburger gives different parents. Rostworowski (talk) 15:23, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://ru.rodovid.org/wk/Запись:208430 Naive rm (talk) 16:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no other source confirming that claim. For the claimed father GHBR and adelsvapen give no child Julius. I merged it with Q55090798. Rostworowski (talk) 23:48, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rostworowski&diff=prev&oldid=2157270424:

Youu merged Q55106436 and Q55090798: https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q55090798&diff=2150013820&oldid=2150007052

What are sources confirming that this items related to the same person? Naive rm (talk) 19:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Each is about a person Julius Stenbock 1912-1878 and personal details also matched. But maybe you start to provide evidence that there are two different Julius Stenbock 1912-1878 having the personal charactaristics they had? Rostworowski (talk) 23:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q123139163&oldid=1994214099 - not a single source

Where did you take the information from? Rostworowski (talk) 01:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Fjodorowitsch_Fuhrmann , https://www.rgfond.ru/person/48514 Naive rm (talk) 07:12, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Fjodorowitsch_Fuhrmann - no source at that page
2. https://www.rgfond.ru/person/48514 - Федор Андреевич Фурман (Готфрид Антон)

Still no reliable source for "Friedrich Anton Fuhrmann" Rostworowski (talk) 00:40, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please see above Naive rm (talk) 19:00, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q125861911&action=history - not a single source, no sex.

Where did you take the information from? Rostworowski (talk) 01:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://rgfond.ru/person/125873, https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/РБС/ВТ/Фок,_Александр_Борисович, https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/РБС/ВТ/Фок,_Иван_Борисович Naive rm (talk) 07:04, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still no source, no sex: https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q125861911&action=history Rostworowski (talk) 16:05, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please see above. He mentioned in the Russian Biographical Dictionary and several memories related to his sons:

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Фок,_Александр_Борисович

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Фок,_Борис_Борисович

https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/РБС/ВТ/Фок,_Иван_Борисович Naive rm (talk) 17:47, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still no source, no sex: https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q125861911&action=history Rostworowski (talk) 00:36, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q55105420&diff=prev&oldid=1994217506 - no source given for that claim. The 3 external IDs don't have genealogical information at all. Rostworowski (talk) 16:03, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are right, Wilhelm Oom (1725-1800) was stepafather for Adolph Oom (1753-1811) and yongest brother of Hinrich Oom (1719-1760) who was the first husband of Gertrude Seebeck - Adolph's mother. I already fixed this mistakeю Naive rm (talk) 18:20, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

please fix https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q125431067&oldid=2154538435 Rostworowski (talk) 00:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

what exactly is wrong in this item? Naive rm (talk) 18:59, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Don't do that! https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q55876214&action=history Friedrich Kettler (talk) 12:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q116982128&action=history created 2023-03-05, sex was added 2024-02-26 via IP Friedrich Kettler (talk) 13:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Don't do that! https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q4327175&action=history Friedrich Kettler (talk) 14:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q109321457&action=history Vahtrik (talk) 13:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

+1. Entries without reference will be deleted. @Naive rm: Please provide a valid source. --Kolja21 (talk) 08:29, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q103857232&action=history created 2020-12-05, sex was added 2021-09-06 by other user Vahtrik (talk) 13:37, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q107301270&action=history

1. no external id
2. no sex
3. a duplicate

Please don't do that! Friedrich Kettler (talk) 14:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q125246650&action=history - no sex Friedrich Kettler (talk) 17:27, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q64690983&action=history - don't do that! Friedrich Kettler (talk) 18:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q122780725&action=history Friedrich Kettler (talk) 02:24, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q126912307&diff=prev&oldid=2192150296 b. 1861, mother b. 1852 [Martens, Katharina Marie Luise, b. Tuhr (1861-1913)]
2. https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q126924462&diff=prev&oldid=2192153545 b. 1852, child b. 1861 [Tuhr, Katharina Anna Luise, b. Schneider, div. v. Nandelstaedt (1852-)]
3. https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q126924462&diff=prev&oldid=2192155013 b. 1852, child b. 1864 [Tuhr, Katharina Anna Luise, b. Schneider, div. v. Nandelstaedt (1852-)]
4. https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q501492&diff=prev&oldid=2192156458 b. 1864, mother b. 1852 [Tuhr, Andreas v. (1864-1925)]

The children of Nikolaus Eduard von Tuhr (Q94796307) are not from the 1899 marriage with Luise Schneider, but from the 1860 marriage with Katharina Wilhelmina Margarethe Tuhr (Q126912308).

Please check mother status independently from wife status.

BergwachtBern (talk) 13:57, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Naive rm (talk) 14:04, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! Thank you for the many links you create to items that I recently created, I get a notification for that every day. In case you create new items, please always add GND or Geni if you have that.

I also proposed Wikidata:Property proposal/Imperial University of Dorpat student ID, many of these students:

• have family relationships with the people you work on
• have a Geni ID

So, I think it might be helpful for your work too, if this ID property would be created. It allows to find duplicates easier and the student register also contains data about father and mother, so more genealogical relations can be created. BergwachtBern (talk) 18:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]